One of Sweden's most well known cultural profiles is a member of 'The Humanitarians'. Björn Ulvaeus is famous to most Swedes as one of the four in the super-group ABBA. He has, alongside fellow ABBA member Benny Andersson, written the musicals "Chess" and "Kristina från Duvemåla". Now he is currently involved with the hit musical "Mamma Mia!", that has at the moment been seen by 25 million people around the world.
Chairman of The Humanitarians, Christer Sturmark, meets him for an interview about religion, politics and the humanitarian view of life. He meets a man who doesn’t believe in any of the religious gods and who has a great engagement in the humanitarian questions.
Christer: Björn, you have recently become a member of The Humanitarians. Tell me why you have chosen to commit yourself to answering these questions and why you think it's important?
Björn: Because I notice how religion is sneaking into politics and becoming a force of power and also competing with the scientific and reasonable way of thinking. That troubles me. I have always been a huge friend of enlightenment and science.
When I have seen irrationality, religious conservative values and hostility against science influencing society, I felt that I wanted to look for an organisation that deals with these questions. I found out that The Humanitarians existed and what they stood for, and it felt obvious for me that I should become a member.
I miss the days when there was a belief in science and reason as there was in the Fifties and Sixties. Now it seems to be unreasonable - with fundamentalism and hatred against science these days. I believe that religion should separate totally from the state. That’s not how it is today, not even in Sweden. For hundreds of years we have struggled to achieve a secular society, and now I think we seem to be going backwards. It surprises me that not more women are opinionated about the matter.
I believe that confessional free schools are highly dubious . I also think that it's absurd that secular life-view organisations, for example 'The Humanitarians', don’t get the same government grants as other life opinionated organisations, just because we do not have court ceremonies! Guess we have to start with meetings were we salute Voltaire!
Christer: Why has it become that way ?
Björn: Hatred against science, I believe, has something to do with that. Science hasn’t been able to solve any of our firsthand problems, as for example the destruction of nature or the problems with HIV and AIDS. It is the worst disease of our time, and scientists stand beaten. I believe that many people will be disappointed at science when it doesn’t come up with the answers we need.
Then I also believe that the atomic bomb and other weapons of mass destruction show that science can be used in evil ways, which can also contribute to the hatred of science.
When it comes to the religious fundamentalism I believe it has to do with globalisation and humankind's insecurities in a world rapidly evolving. You will have to look back to your identity's creative roots, which are often religious.
Christer: Do you see yourself as an atheist?
Björn: Well, I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism. I have or can not have a clear view of god's existence. I do not believe in the god that is described in the middle east religions or any other religions for that matter. I'm not denying that there is something out there, but I don’t think that we should try to explain and understand what it might be. If Atheism means that you're categorically denying God's existence, I wouldn’t go that far. The problem with fundamentalists is that they consider themselves knowing that God exists and what his wish is. I would like to call me a "Freethinker", a better word than either agnostic or atheist. Maybe you should reinstate it in our modern vocabulary.
Christer: Which questions in today's society do you think are the most important ones when it comes to religion, view of life and politics and where is the limit between freedom of religion and society's principals about freedom of speech and human rights?
Björn: I'm so incredibly tired of giving respect to a lot of superstitions and crazy ideas just because they fall under the banner of religion. If it had been about other things no one would have demanded respect in the same way.
The private belief shall of course be respected, but the belief must not have a lot of consequences in society and other people. Where is the line between superstition and religion? If you imagine that we are on a small planet in a solar system at the edge of a small galaxy at the edge of the universe, then it might actually be unreasonable to cry out: We have the answer! This is how it is! For us, God has revealed himself . And then to write down the story of how the world was created etc. But all religions claim that each one is saying that this is the right one. It becomes too much for me.
I also think it's important that you should be able to criticise and analyze religion, the same way that you can criticise others opinions and values. That must be the religious stand!
FN:s declaration on human rights must always be first in line before religion or other cultural habits, in the case there might rise any conflict between them. I believe that point is not told well and clear enough of our politicians today. Some values must be universal, like human rights and humans' equal worth. I think that politicians in Sweden are nervous to point this out, probably out of fear of being judged as discriminating or cultural imperialistic.
Mixed culture is always worth striving for, but most never go before human rights. There are fantastic brave correspondents for other cultures and religion, who stands up for the human rights completely.
I'm thinking about Ayaan Hirsi Ali from Somalia, who fled to the
Netherlands. She has written the book "Demand your Right!" about the oppression of Muslim women. That kind of spokesperson and other women from the Muslim world we should take better care of in the political debate today, I think. She is saying clearly that most politicians are engaging in pure nonsense, when they're tiptoeing over these question like a cat around warm porridge, just because they are so afraid of not being politically correct. I'm experiencing that it is mostly western and left-leaning liberals who have that attitude. I see myself as a social liberal, but on this subject even the Swedish liberals are too careful and scared. Hirsi Ali means that that is the worst thing you could do against women in the Muslim world, to not speak you mind and say what you think. I also think that it is disrespectful to the Arab culture, implying that "they are Arabs, you can't discuss human rights with them". I think it's discriminating against the Arabs themselves. Of course we should have the same dialog with Muslims about human rights, as with other people. And also a lot of Muslims are not more religious then the average Swede. For them it’s natural that human rights come to hand first.
Christer: Yes there are Muslim intellectual circles with Muslims who are very modern and radical. I spoke recently with Jan Henningsson who is boss for the Swedish institute in Alexandria in Egypt. He speaks Arab fluently and teaches some at the university there. He told me that there are intellectual Muslims who praise women's total equality, and equal rights for homosexuals... things we don’t normally associate with Islam. So apparently, there are evolving internal processes within the Muslim theology.
Björn: Yes that’s exactly what I mean, this should be presented more in the Swedish debate. Instead you look at Muslims like they cant think with a modern viewpoint at all, which is of course, wrong. But these Muslim intellectuals cant be word for word Koran readers.
Christer: Can you tell me about your own intellectual process when it evolves your view of life? When did you start reflecting over these things, were you thinking the same way in your youth? How did your current perception grow?
Björn: I had a short flirtation with religion in my youth, when I read the Bible. I had read Dan Andersson's novel "David Ramm's Heritage" when I was about fifteen. The book was about a young man, David, who was pondering over the existential and religious questions. When I read that novel, I also thought that I was going to be a ruminator and difficult, you know. But it was mostly a question of image I think...then school and music started to take over my life and then I didn’t have time to try being difficult and pondering!
I believe I didn’t really start thinking about religion until fifteen years ago. I started to get interested in why religion existed and why the human being was in such a need of it and what she did in its name. I started to wonder about these religious questions which had started being asked such a long time ago. Who were the tellers and why did they tell? Maybe to achieve power and influence. It must have been an utterly good way of achieving this if you didn’t have soldiers and armies at your disposal.
Christer: The musical "Kristina från Duvemåla" that you wrote together with Benny Andersson is about Kristina and Karl Oskar - both strong religious believers. What was it like for you, working with these religious characters?
Björn: When I was working with writing these lyrics, I tried to put myself in her position, to find out how, for example, Kristina thought. She was a deep believer and faith for her was what gave her hope to survive in a very hard world. I could really understand why Kristina and the other immigrants held on to their faith whatever it cost. They were so deserted out there in the wilderness and worked so hard to survive. But when Kristina loses her child, even she starts to doubt.
That I express in the song "Du måste finnas", when Kristina speaks directly to God and says " You must exist, without you I'm just a splinter on a dark and stormy sea".
I can really understand that they needed their faith at the time, to at least have some hope in the depths of despair. For that kind of religion I have a deep respect.
But Karl Oskar did not believe very much. Maybe he is the old atheist, Moberg's alter ego in this case. And I don’t believe myself.
Christer: You have been active for a long time in show business, both in Sweden and internationally. Some times one gets the impression that this business is very involved in the new spiritual way of believing. Hollywood stars who are scientologists and those like Madonna who mess with Kabbala etc etc. Is it like that and if so why?
Björn: Those I meet in the Swedish industry don’t think I'm any more strange then any other human being. But I do believe that many artists are 'trend-sensitive' and travel a path that they believe can benefit their career. Many of those that express political views or flirt with New Age and new spirituality, maybe don't share these views inside of themselves. But I can't say it's been especially apparent through the years, maybe I haven't met the right people.
Christer: One could suspect your status as a non-believer in the Swedish translation of the musical "Mamma Mia". I'm thinking of the song "Thank You For The Music" that in Swedish is called " Tack För Alla Sånger". The lyrics takes an obvious distance from religion.
The lyrics go like this:
"…thanks for all the songs, words and notes,
Who needs religion?
That we can do without, but what if music was not around,
Everyone needs a song and a dance!…"
Was it a conscious thought to take a stand with those lyrics in that question?
Björn: I thought we could do like John Lennon did in "Imagine" and sneak in a statement. He writes "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do, nothing to kill or die for, No religion too."
It is sung in churches without people thinking that he wishes for a "world without religion". I wrote the Swedish version of "Thank You For The Music" with Niklas Strömstedt and we were both prepared for the fact that it would cause reactions. But not one single complaint has been made! Not one single letter of complaint!
I'm actually quite surprised by it, since over 500,000 people have seen the show. When I was working with "Kristina från Duvemåla", I received loads of letters from people who wanted me to speak in churches, because everyone believed that I was religious. But I declined.
I don’t think that it would be appreciated that such a "freethinker" speaks in the church! But I love churches. I think that they are incredibly beautiful buildings and I enjoy the mood and tranquillity. But there is no religion in that. By the way I have to tell a funny episode to you...When myself and Agnetha (Fältskog) were going to get married, we found a beautiful castle where we wanted the party. We were stuck on this castle, and then there was a connected church that we thought was so beautiful, so we decided to get married anyway in the church, mostly for tradition. Neither of us were religious. When I spoke to the Vicar the first time he asked me what my occupation was, I answered "I'm an artist" but I probably didn't make it clear because he looked terrified and cried out "Atheist?!" He didn’t know how right he was, even though he heard wrong.
Christer: A lot of people believe in different pseudoscientific practises and treatment methods, healing etc. I can sometimes experience a moral dilemma, when it comes to how strongly you should cast away these things. If a good friend is incurably sick, and believes in these things, do you really have a right to take away their hope, through arguing against treatment methods that are different? At the same time it is deeply immoral of some loudmouths to exploit these desperate people.
Björn: I know exactly what you mean. I have a good friend whose wife is dying of lung cancer. He tried all kinds of alternative treatments, although he himself didn’t believe in them. But he thought that he didn’t have anything to lose. It’s a difficult moral question, without any real obvious answers I think. It's easier if someone believes so strongly in a pseudoscientific treatment that they choose that instead of a real style of treatment. Then you have
to say what you think.
I have recently read the book "Science and Delusion" which is about
pseudoscience and other delusions. It's unbelievable what weird things people believe in.
Christer: Exactly. That’s why The Humanitarians has offered a prize of 100,000 kronor which goes to those who can show any paranormal ability under scientifically controlled conditions. I'm not especially worried about the chances of having to give out the prize money!
Björn: That’s excellent! I think they should make a TV show of it. As
pure consumer enlightenment. I don’t understand how society and the world of science can except so much badmouthing and cheating in our society. We should have more obvious laws in this area. Our scientists who know of these things should debate this more often in the media. The problem is that the media lives on these things. Horoscopes, and tv shows about the spiritual world etc. Maybe they don’t want it to be revealed.
Christer: How do you look at the development of American progress, in the light of President Bush's obvious religious beliefs? Do you think that there might be risks that Sweden could also become more religious.
Björn: Yes its very troublesome. That we should we have America as allies to fight against secularisation! The struggle against terrorism weakens if it's perceived as a battle between Islamic and Christian fundamentalists. But at the same time I don’t think that Americans are as religious as it seems. When they answer in different surveys that they believe in God, it makes me wonder if it's just simply a routine. The church in America is also very much a social constitution. We shall hope that there is a Democrat who wins the election after Bush. Hillary Clinton maybe?
Christer: What are your thoughts on Jesus and the mythology surrounding him. What is Jesus to you?
Björn: To start with I think the story of Jesus is very fascinating. It still has such a tremendous power, even after 2,000 years! We don’t really know if he has existed as a historical figure or not. Imagine that a believer still sees Jesus as a personal friend that they can turn to in times of trouble. What an incredible powerful myth that is! I stand doubtful that Jesus existed as a human being, even if I don’t think that it matters in the least to a believer today. A lot of people who were around at the same time as Jesus are well documented by the historians of the time, but there are only one or two mentions of Jesus.
Christer: You who writes stories and works with scripts, can you tell me what kind of dramatic qualities in the story of Jesus has led to it's enormous impact?
Björn: The whole story of the Virgin Mary and the three wise men,
Jesus' birth and later the return to Jerusalem, though he knew what was waiting for him, is storytelling of wisdom, pure genius. Not to mention all the miracles, the cruel crucifixion - where Jesus himself must drag the cross to his own execution. And later the reaction. Everyone loves these stories. The ride to Jerusalem must have been like the Beatles' arrival in New York, but from what I understand, that is not documented by any contemporary historians.
Christer: So it was a smart move by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice to write the musical "Jesus Christ Superstar" wasn't it? Half the work was already done so to speak?
Björn: Yes, it was a fantastic success. It was also a little 'sacred' even.
Tim Rice told me that they had many problems in America, where many protested against the musical's way of describing Jesus. Herod is portrayed as a prima- donna, and the image of Judas wasn’t looked upon favourably either. But mostly it was thought you could not portray Jesus that way.
Christer: Thanks for this talk!
Björn: Thank you!
From Humanisten, Issue No. 4, December 2005
To English from Swedish by Jimmy Whitefield.
Further editing c/o icethesite.com
Thanks to Dominic "Ice" Wallis for permission to use this translation. Check out some other great ABBA related material on Ice's site here: http://www.icethesite.com/
Thanks to ABBAMAILer Ian Cole, Sydney, Australia
